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Post by firsttofight on Feb 28, 2009 16:28:10 GMT -5
PS:
All the lists that I bring to play are staight forward out of the handbooks.
I may go as far as to say that they are "vanilla". I play only for fun. It is a fun game.
It's not the lists that beat people. It's a combination of the tactics, the experience, and the ability to adjust ones gameplay to best fit the opponents gameplan.
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Post by cephian on Feb 28, 2009 19:47:32 GMT -5
First I want to say "YAY" on the spell check Tiger505 did (or whatever).
However in your post you stated and I have to disagree. No where does it say such. So if it's agreed upon the start of the game on the list composition and both players are 'okay' with what is being played, it's all good.
It's all about sportsmanship and playing a friendly game, even if it's a friendly game that you're looking to obliterate your opponent.
Let's keep the game fun, 60Buick was simply saying he'd like to try a list out under the multiple company rule set, great! Let's run it and see how it does for a few weeks against various units.
But if we're going to sit here and just constantly interpret the rules and statements in the MRB all the time it's going to start taking the fun out of it.
Ceph
(I removed my cheese comments, I'm still looking for a fight I think.. ugh)
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Post by threadhead on Mar 1, 2009 0:48:20 GMT -5
The list is probably illegal....handbooks have limits - you generally cannot run US and Russians in the same company. Allies generally refer to Germans with Italian platoons and vice a versa. Also, SS and Herr, and maybe Finish and German. In these cases, these are platoons that are added into the exisiting company and are allowed in the specific book (i.e. Afrika, Ostfront, cobra, etc...) Hope this helps.... Larry  |
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Post by cephian on Mar 1, 2009 2:29:25 GMT -5
It's not about a list being legal or illegal. It's about mixing it up and trying new things. As 60Buick already pointed out, other lists have been run without so much, what appears to be on the surface, something insanely and unhistorical. He just wants to try the list and see how it can run. He's not looking to enter it into a tournament or use it outside his normal play group.
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60buick
Munifex
Captured Tiger II
Posts: 162
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Post by 60buick on Mar 1, 2009 2:44:54 GMT -5
They are not in the same company. It is two separate companies fighting along side each other.
I agree there is nothing in italics that says my force can only consist of one company.
The three methods they give you to choose your force is to
"fight with everything you have" for someone with only one or two platoons.
"Scenario-based force" recreating of a historic battle without reference to points cost or organization. You are fielding a recreating of what fought in a specific battle.
"Points based forces" Building your force to a set points limit, the most common and best way of ensuring a fair fight and interesting game.
I opted for the third method.........same as everyone else.
Good to know but I am not fielding allied platoons as support platoons, I am fielding two completely separate companies.
What they mean, is at that points cost you start running out of things to buy. At 1750 with my rifles I have already bought all the good stuff and run 3 or 4 crap platoons. At 2500 I would have no choice but to run two companies since I already have every support option available. They are simply making it known to the player that you have another option to make the games as large as you choose.
By your interpretation the next time they up the standard points 250 points I can play the following list. They went from 1500 to 1750. I don't see 2000 as much of a stretch in the future since all the new toys are getting more pricey. 250 points is nothing in this game. The two list are near identical but going by your interpretation the extra 250 points make it legal.
American
HQ=15
Rifle Platoon=110
Rifle Platoon=110
Field Artillery Battery=145
Field Artillery Battery=145
Field Artillery Battery=145
Air Observer plane=40
81mm Mortor platoon=50
Soviet
HQ=30
Strelk Blob one=320
Strelk Blob two=320
Strelk Blob three=320
Sappers=250
2000 points
Any time you play Soviets you are playing a Battalion sized game! Each platoon is a company and each company is a battalion. Does this mean anyone playing Soviets is not playing a normal force. If so is it violating of the intent of the rules?
Also how would you define a normal force? I would not define a single list out of Bloody Omaha as a normal force. Nor would I define a normal force as one consisting of several Goliaths and Borg winds. I wouldn't consider a some of the new list in hammer and Sickle as normal but they are here and can be played by anyone without any fuss.
They are not giving you an option. The option is always there, they are suggesting you do it.
*In Flames of war you can field multiple companies in the same force. This is particularly useful with the Rangers as a ranger company is quite small and they usually operate in groups of up to five ranger companies.*
So in my "force" or what I put on the table, I can field multiple companies, the reason for the special notation is that a ranger company is so small that no one would play it if you were only allowed one or had to in-cure the penalty of lose a single company and the game is over.
The largest possible points cost of a single Ranger platoon with the two most expensive support options is only 960 points. So of course there will be special rules to field them. There is no other option.
What Phil is referring to is trying to find a loop hole in an existing rule.
If there is no rule to interpret how can it not be legal? Since there is no rule there is nothing to interpret.
Thats like saying there is no law against belching in public so it must not be legal.
And the biggest thing of all is, nothing is written in italics so what ever they "suggest" is irrelevant because there is no rule to violate. While some may not agree with it or think it should not be allowed, the bottom line is there is absolutely no rule preventing it. The only stipulation is multiple companies are not allowed in tournaments in the US. So if it is not allowed at HT it would come under a "club rule" and not a "game rule". If we are going to make our club rule that the list has to be tournament legal do we turn away the people who are new to the game and barely have 1750 points but can get a miss matched army on the board? If not when do we tell them they must have a tournament list ready by?
Multiple companies are not new to our group so thats not the problem. Battalion sized games are not new to our group so that is not the problem. So it must be mixed nationalities. It doesn't violate any rules and it does not exceed the points limit so it must be a historical hang up. But if we are going to say not to run an unhistorical American/soviet list you might as well say not to pair up two opponents with list from different fronts, or two opponents with list that could not have possibly fought each other. Or for that matter not allow list that do not follow the historical balance we power gamers ignore when conceiving a new list to run.
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Post by cephian on Mar 1, 2009 2:49:43 GMT -5
 This thread could go forever! What happened to the fun in this game? It's turning to "Point/Counter Point" now. No need to worry if it'll be allowed at HTUSA, no one can stop you and another person wanting to try the list you came up with. There's no law against belching? Hmm.. what about farting? Any law against that? 
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Post by E on Mar 1, 2009 6:49:09 GMT -5
Interesting, but just to note as well, there is no rule saying I can't puch you in the face, take your models and smash them on the floor and declare myself the winner. Want to allow that? Seriously, remember, in a game rule set, the concept of "is doesn't say I can't so I must be able to" is absolute BS. The way you HAVE to read the rules is "it doesn't say I can, so I must not be able to." This irks the guys that want to apply logic and history to a game, and causes a lot of problems with FoW because it is hitorically based that games like Warhammer never had to face. Remember, it is a GAME< so you have to play by the rules, not what you logicaly believe the rules should be, not what you logicaly think the game designer intended, and not what would be more historically accurate.
Now, go to seperate corners, get your face all vasalined up and spit out the blood so the next round starts off clean.
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Post by Tiger505 on Mar 1, 2009 10:20:41 GMT -5
Thank you Eric but you just summed it up, it isn't about what the rules do not forbid. It is about what they say you can do. There is no rule forbidding Germans and British technically so would you object to me running that against your Soviet/American mix? This concept is Pandora's box which is why the tournament standard forbids it. The rules as written in each army list including Soviets are written to build an entire force from that list. It is not written so that we can cheery pick multiple lists. As for the point based force your claiming that is not where they suggest multi-national lists. There are 3 sources for rules the HBRB, MALFTF, and handbooks. Those define what you can do, and suggest some ideas for certain types of players. As long as your willing to step totally into sci-fi land I have no issue but you cant stay in the frame work of the rules as written and played at tournaments and do this. I know you said it is a HT list and had you wanted just 2 companies of the same nation I wouldn't even bat an eye. Its the mixing of two countries that breaks the balance of each.
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Post by threadhead on Mar 1, 2009 11:54:50 GMT -5
OK...I was thinking in terms or tournament play and regular game play. I see no problem if you and someone else wanted to mix and match, do battalion games or whatever, as long as the other person(s) knew in advanced. I tend to be a history buff, so I personally prefer playing against lists that conform to the handbook - but maybe all that means is that I am missing out on a fun battle.... Just my humble opinion... Larry |
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Post by Tiger505 on Mar 2, 2009 0:57:13 GMT -5
Hey I found out actual rules for what you want to do are in the Firestorm book. It features the Total War rule set to be used in campaigns.
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Post by cephian on Mar 2, 2009 9:30:02 GMT -5
I said this once but no one suggested otherwise. To my understanding those rules should only be used in the Firestorm campaign, not general play.
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