A little lightbulb in my head.

[60buick]

I had a wonderfully broken thought. I can't find a rule anywhere saying I can't field multiple companies from different nationality's or even from different books. What I have uncovered is the vauge rule in the book and it does make it OK to play mixed nationalities! I have also found people have fielded mixed forces of Brits and Americans.

Phil has not specifically addressed the issue so some people do play them and have found tourny list of mixed nationalities.

The only rule is on page 183.

*If you are playing a large game with 2000-3000 points you may want to field more than one company. You may do this as long as each company that you field has a headquarters and at least two combat platoons. Remember though, that the game ends when any of your companies fails a Company Morale Check, so fielding many small companies can be risky.*

The thought of taking My American Rifle company from FE2 with all the Artillery and smoke assets I can and Solviet Strelk blobs as the second company is tempting.

I think this is my new HobbyTown list


American
HQ=15
Rifle Platoon=110
Rifle Platoon=110
Field Artillery Battery=145
Field Artillery Battery=145
Field Artillery Battery=145
Air Observer plane=40
81mm Mortor platoon=50

Solviet
HQ=30
Strelk Blob one=320
Strelk Blob two=320
Strelk Blob three=320

1750 points

[cephian]

I think I'm going to be sick.

[Tiger505]

Can you provide the ruling because until I see it then it is no going to be allowed at any event I run nor will I play it. I will also want to know how reserves are worked out AKA do you get 1/2 of each company or 1/.2 of the total.

[60buick]

The ruling I found is.

Both companys must be allied or axis.

You must field at least 2 combat platoons and an HQ for each company.

Must be of the same time period Late/Mid/Early

Thats it.... Anything else should be legal.

Like I said Phil has not commented on this specifically so it is open to interpretation.

My understanding is it operates no different than several Ranger companies with the disadvantage of one failing a company moral ends the game.


Some other things/situations I found

You can break up an american list and run two companys making only one veteren.

Some people run Germans/Italions or German/Hungarian

Others were running Brits/Americans or Americans/Solviets.


* When using the british night rules the other company does not come on the board until daybreak*

*when one company dies the game is over*

*When running mixed types (tank company and infantry company) you are considered a tank company.*

*You only get one air support no matter how many companies*

*Each company operates independently, not benifiting from the others special rules.*

*You still only get the same number of reserve dice and can choose which company recieves reserves*

*You would half to leave half of each company in reserve*

*You do not get an extra ambush for fielding multiple companies*

[Tiger505]

Ok run it. I would not be surprised it most people refuse to play it. I will play against it but I will be using a Festung Kompanie or a Bunkered out Sturm list when I do.

[cephian]

I looked as well and couldn't find anything that say's you can't run that list. That's what I was talking about last night on the phone in that in a tournament I'm trying to find a list that will work "ok" all around. Making a list to specifically address another list is fun in a one off game but that in a tournament would make me even cringe.

[scoutsout]

I believe what you're looking for will be found on page 183 of the MRB.

Under the section "Fielding Allied Platoons" you will find the following verbage:

Most forces represent troops from a single nation. Sometimes though- in situations where this occured historically- it is possible to field platoons from allied armies fighting alongside your main force. The intelligence handbooks detail which forces may field allies, and which allied platoons are available.

Now the next section, "Multiple Company Forces" does not specifically prohibit the use of multiple nationalities companies...I believe the intent is to follow the above rules as well (see bolded above). Why? Because if you really look at the multiple company rules they follow the same basic rules as adding platoons to a company, only you are adding companies to a battalion! There are even rules for adding "Higher Level Command Teams", i.e. the Battalion commander.

Not necessarily a specific rule, but there is definite intent shown.

David

[60buick]

The rule book was written by people that don't understand how people in the US play war games. We build armies to kick butt and take names. They build historical army's with all the historical weaknesses. Not one person in our group plays friendly games with friendly army's. I think the intent in New Zealand was to give the player more historical leeway (like the people running Brits/Americans or Germans/Italians) but they left a nice opening to combine the best of two armies like I did. I don't see it as something they considered many people would do to power game because of the downside of losing one company and your done. But then again they don't power game.


I can remember a nightmare called Festung Company and the new storm company chewing me up and spitting me out with 6-1 losses every single week. I noticed why those army's are so broken in the US. We build different list and play with a style not recognized as sporting where the game was designed. I thought outside of the box and came up with an allied nightmare. But I do think it could be killed. Break one company or the other, thats the weakness. I like the idea of combined arms and in most instances it would not be a nightmare to fight. I just happened to think of the most hellish way to combine the best of two army's. I have the stuff to run it but I am still sticking with the Stalins for a while. I do want to run this list or one similar once the Stalins get old. I like tons of infantry and lots of arty, this list has both.

I have also been toying with a multiple US Infantry company that has 6 rifle platoons and four artillery battery's engineers and a whole lot of bazookas. I think it is more broken than the US/Soviet list, but I don't have enough Americans.

[Tiger505]

Well you need to buy the firestorm set because it is going to be the new standard rule set for what you wish to do. To be honest I think you combined them in a way that is very lacking in several things. I will not be surprised if no one will play you when you try it also because it does break the spirit of the rules. I do find it interesting you have adopted my point of view on people from commonwealth nations and the rules they write. BTW as the TO or Assistant TO for all HT events I can already tell you it wont be allowed. I checked with the other Atlanta groups and they already have a ban in place for multi company forces at all events except units such as rangers who are meant to be used that way. Anytime your ready to try it just let me know. The Festung list is ready =)

[cephian]

BTW who said you were the TO or Assistant TO for all HT events, specifically FoW?

[Tiger505]

Just sorta been slipping into that role, but John R. has been the one to do it all up until now.


<edited for spelling...left colloquialisms intact..27 Feb 09>

[cephian]

Okay thought I missed another Party Committee meeting?

It's to my understanding the new rules about multiple companies only applies to the Bagration Operation campaign at this time?

[E]

Outside of the "special forces" lists like Rangers and Commandos that have to have multiple companies to play, most tournaments do not allow multiple companies. That is a standard followed here in the US, in NZ, and in the UK. I asked around on several other forums and directly to FoW players and that is the consensus.

Personally, if you wanted to run two companies, that is fine, but to me they should be the same nationality and from the same intelligence briefing. Anything else is the stuff of historical scenarios and campaigns.

[60buick]

most tournaments do not allow multiple companies

I checked with the other Atlanta groups and they already have a ban in place for multi company forces at all events except units such as rangers who are meant to be used that way.

If they only recognize multiple companies of Rangers and Commandos at a tournament that is fine. If that is the tournament standard so be it. But what does a tournament have to do with the list? I do not ALWAYS run tournament list even though some do. Notice I said my new "hobby town list", I won't paint that much tournament quality infantry and I do not think it would do to well in a tournament because of no big AT. It is just something different that no one has thought of doing in our group yet that should be hard to kill. I remember running a lot of different things that made people scratch there heads but I wanted to see how it worked. I have run multiple Rifle companies a couple times and no ones panties bunched up. Someone else also ran twin tank platoons with 10 76's, no ones panties got in a bunch there either.

Not necessarily a specific rule, but there is definite intent shown.

I will not be surprised if no one will play you when you try it also because it does break the spirit of the rules.

I don't agree with this either. for team play, in the rules book it says
" USUALLY, all the players on a team will field forces from the same country. For example, one player might command a German Panzerkompanie with their team-mate commanding a German Panzergrenadierkompanie. HOWEVER, multi player games also offer the exciting possibility of fielding allied companies-such as a German Grenadierkompanie fighting along side an Italian Fucilieri Compagnia."

So if me and Vince paired off against two other opponents are we going against the intent of the rules? No. Whats the difference if it is done at a lower points cost with a single player? I'm sorry but I do not see one.

To be honest I think you combined them in a way that is very lacking in several things

I agree! i think it has a lot of strength but it also has some big weaknesses. I came up with the idea thinking about how David uses his AR's. He smoked across the whole board for three turns not giving me a single target then in one turn pinned me with half track fire and assaulted my entire rifle platoon off the objective. Every game I played David he used the same tactic and it works very well. I think the American/soviet list works the same without the AT asset of the AR's and .50cal half tracks but I would gain mass with the assault. Thats it. I would still be going against GTG Veteran troups so smoke is not a promise and the long range German guns can cap some of the arty in a turn or two.

I do find it interesting you have adopted my point of view on people from commonwealth nations and the rules they write.

That view has been talked about by several members of our group on a number of occasions. Anyone on the FOW board that pays attention to what part of the world people are posting from can pick up on that in ten minutes. Your view is common sense, not an opinion.

Anytime your ready to try it just let me know. The Festung list is ready

Can you provide the ruling because until I see it then it is no going to be allowed at any event I run nor will I play it.

I will play against it but I will be using a Festung Kompanie or a Bunkered out Sturm list when I do.

I will not be surprised if no one will play you when you try it also because it does break the spirit of the rules.

No one has said they wouldn't play it but you and if you did you would bring the most broken thing you can think of, the Festung company or a storm company tailored to beat it. Are you saying you won't play unless you are confident you can completely destroy an opponent? You know how broken bunkers are and the Soviet/American list could not template it or assault it. Nor could anyone else's army. The difference is you ran the Festung company for a couple of months against my regular American rifles and enjoyed completely destroying them every game. I think the only reason it doesn't show up anymore is I refused to play it after the tournament. I didn't refuse to play it until I played it a dozen times and realized it was unbeatable. I have also played brumbars, goliaths, tigers, king tigers and about a dozen AT guns in each list yet every week I bring the same 15 Shermans with my only hope being that I can kill one platoon before my army breaks.

I race slot cars every Monday and the one thing I learned is the one that makes the biggest fuss over other people cheating is the one who's car is illegal. No one else is making a fuss and your list tend to be overkill. I'm not saying water down your list but when someone else comes up with something that is going to be tough to beat, don't go out of your way to show why it shouldn't be played.

[Tiger505]

Page 21 HBRB Reading the Rules

"While the explanation may be useful in understanding and interpreting the rules , only the text printed in italics is actually rules"

Page 183 HBRB Choosing your force
Nothing on this page is in Italics. This page is entirely explanations and suggestions on how to pick a force. I direct you to the top of the page.

"Before fighting a battle, you need to to choose your force. There are several methods you can use for the force selection. Reach an agreement with your opponent on which method to employee for this game"

This page then gives you several ways to select the force but you have to agree that your both using the same method. The page is still not rules.

Page 183 HBRB Field Allied Platoons

"The Intelligence Handbooks detail which forces may field allies, and which allied platoons are available"

Intelligence Handbooks are books like Cobra, Stalin`s Onslaught, and Hammer & Sickle. Cobra has the option to field an allied platoon in the German section of the book.

Page 183 HBRB Multiple Company Forces

"If you are playing a large game with 2000-3000 points, you may want to field more than one company."

This suggestion is directed to games a bit larger than the 1750 format we play in.

Page 188 HBRB Multi-Player Battles

This section references multi-national forces but as part of a team game environment. Again this section has no rules only suggestions.

Page 230 HBRB Battalion-Sized Battles

This page lists the rules for large scale games. Again to play a game this size you need your opponent`s agreement to include the teams needed.

HBRB Page 23 Organization/Companies

"The normal force you will field in Flames of War is a company of two to four platoons commanded by a captain or major"

To make a list with multiple companies you are playing a Battalion game which is beyond the normal force. Again this is not a rule but the suggested standard method of play.

HBRB Page 32 How to Build Your Army.

This page suggests you pick a nation and then use an Intelligence Handbook to build your list. It also states that the handbooks give you all of the information you need to build your army. It further states the core of the handbook is the diagram showing how to build the combat companies listed in the book.

If you read the handbooks it is noted that only a few companies give you the option to field multi-company forces in a standard game. This is a rule listed specifically in the handbook not a general rule. Again nothing here is a rule as it is not in italics but it is the suggested game standard.

Fortress Europe

This book does not include multi-company rules. The lists in this book do not include any force that allows you to run a multi company list.

In Summary
There are a few company sized forces that state in their rules you may field a battalion level force. The Rangers and Churchill Companies can be used in a multi company force. These are the exceptions to the standard game play environment. The Tournament standard is that any company that does not specifically allow a multi company list may not use one. The Hard Back Rule Book includes no rules covering a list such as you purpose. It only gives guidelines and suggestions for its use if Both parties agree to play such a non standard game. You can run this list but only if your opponent also runs a list built using the same guidelines and you both agree. To date except from historical scenarios we always play by that tournament standard. If you run this list against someone not using the same guidelines and without their consent then it is basically cheating.

"If what you are trying to do seems to require a complicated interpretation of (the rule), then it probably is not supposed to be done. " ~ Phil @ Battlefront

There is no rule to interpret so it is not legal.

My knee jerk reaction was a bit harsh and I apologize for that but it really shocked me you wanted to play that list. I have been realy stressed and busy of late so I didn`t look at this rationaly at first.