H&S for David to consider

[Tiger505]

Moto Strelk
35 HQ
425 Full Moto Strelk W/ Kommisar
280 Moto Strelk 2/3
110 Spenatz Small
540 8x Guards T-34/85
255 5x Guards M10
105 4x Kati w/ extra crew (counts as 8 guns)

1750 w/6 Platoons

[dagrinch]

Feb 16, 2009 23:42:05 GMT -5 Tiger505 said:

105 4x Kati w/ extra crew (counts as 8 guns)

Don't count on this being correct as of now. Debate is still out as to whether its a typo or not. Hopefully we'll find out Thursday.

[firsttofight]

Who's debating this subject? The brief is only 4 days old.

[dagrinch]

Feb 18, 2009 12:14:14 GMT -5 firsttofight said:

Who's debating this subject? The brief is only 4 days old.

There are alot of major issues with the book. Typo's all over the place. Main Example.. The flak nest.. it isn't able to shoot at aircraft...
The Katy's points (actually platoon break out) is another major issue going on right now.

[mcginn]

Basically the problem is you can get two mortar sections in H&S for the price of one in FE2

[firsttofight]

Flak Nest, read pg 49. "able to fire as anti-aircraft and anti-personel weapons". (pg 71) 16" range, ROF 6, AT 5, FP 5+, ROF 2 when pinned. organized just as any other AAA in the games. This is common sense, unless I missed the page where it says "Flak Nest are anti-air that is unable to engage aircraft".
I'm not a Soviet Historian, however, it looks to be comparable to NW41 Rocket Launchers.
You need to show specific examples of typo's from Phil @ Battlefront, until then it's fine.
Not being a smarty, people tend to look for any reason to claim that something is a broken list. If it's a typo, it will be posted somewhere?
Thanks mcginn. what kind of mortar and for which country are you refering? It looks like Katy's are Rocket Launchers to me.

[dagrinch]

Since you want to be a smarty
Katys are called "Guards Rocket Mortar Battery". That is what Mcginn is referring to. SO and FE2 points are based on 1/2/4 platoons while H&S are based on 2/3/4 platoons. Same points both ways just number of platoons is different.

Look in the arsenal where the give the weapon system stats.. No AA capability for flak nest. Fluff means nothing which is what your quoting. Are they a platoon for coy purposes? They are listed as a platoon option.

The infiltration ability needs clarified (according to some). Do tanks have to take bog checks if they infiltrate into difficult.. are vehicles restricted on the movement option, etc. All questions being asked.

The Sperrverband "Times Up" rule is another rule in question. Are they fearless against all counterassault or just against tanks?

Alot of issues with the H&S book.

[firsttofight]

I don't understand why you have to say that i'm being a smarty? I specifically said that that is not my intent. I just didn't see all the typo's and was hoping that the more experienced players would be kind enough to point them out. I'm not quoting fluff, i'm quoting the brief. It looks as if I should have asked Tiger 505 or the guy named Tim to respond, since he's the expert and doesn't get defensive when asked a question.

Ok, the Katy is a rocket mortar. I didn't see that since it looked like a rocket launcher and is called a rocket launcher twice in the Arsenal and under Devastating Bombardment on pg 39. My mistake. ooo...this could be a typo. Just kidding.

Your absolutely right about the platoon breakdown on the Katy's. If you get 3 for the price of 2, it would require two more kills to affect unit strength and is cheaper to get to re-roll misses.

Flak Nests are a platoon. It is listed plainly as a support platoon under each company. It also has AAA capability, thats what it does.

Infiltration is also plainly written. They use all the normal movement rules for terrain, including those for obstacles and fortifications; pg 11.

Times Up is also plainly written. Since the Sperrverband Co is Reluctant, when they, just like all the other infantry co's, take the Motivation Test to assault tanks (tank terror) or to counterattack or break off, they are considered Fearless. Usually, soldiers figure on living to fight another day. Since the Sperrverband is considered the last line of defense, they accept their fate and fight to the last man in order to by time for the armee to fall back.

I do thank you, Dagrinch for your response. All I was asking is that someone explain what they were talking about. Please, remember that everyone who enjoys FoW may not be a gamer. Misspelled words and simple editing mistakes can be easily rectified by the players before the game begins.

Take care guys.

[cephian]

Unfortunately Firsttofight some of the people on the FoW website take things literally. Okay so there's not a note in the section for Flak Nests that says "Anti-Aircraft". However their common sense is lacking and thus a debate gets started about how Flak Nests should or shouldn't be considered AA capable because the freaking note is missing. The same for the special rule called "Times Up". Take it how it's literally written and out of context the debate gets started about counter attacks being specifically for taking on tanks or in general.

Personally I agree with you on these thoughts. However never take an experienced player completely for their word. :-p (Just my opinion of course)

[dagrinch]

i was pointing out the typos or what people thought were typos like I was asked.
Here is the errata for Hammer and Sickle. www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/Documents/Hammer-and-Sickle-Errata.pdf

And the Flak nests do not count since they are bunkers. It was just one of the debates.

[mcginn]

This list looks a lot like what I'm considering (for blob strelk so my tank options are different). Looks really good, M10s will be quite the good

[cephian]

McGinn did you get a chance to look at the lists developed at Joe's Crab Shack?

[Tiger505]

OK this is the best lists I can make from H&S. I know the Crab shack list is bad news but it feels fickle and brittle.

Moto Strelk Guards FT

35 HQ
425 Moto Strelk Full & Kom
295 Moto Strelk 2/3 & Kom
110 Spetsnaz Small
540 8x Guards T34/85
255 4x Guards M10
85 1 Section 82mm Mortars w/Observer
Total 1745 Deploys 6 Platoons

Rota
50 HQ 1x 50cal
235 ATP 1x 50cal
235 ATP 1x 50cal
405 5x T34/85 2x T34/76
405 5x T34/85 2x T34/76
110 Spetsnaz Small
110 4x BA64
200 Limited IL2
Total 1750 Deploys 6 Platoons

Guards Tankovy
90 HQ T34/85 & Tanko
625 10x T34/85
625 10x T34/85
300 Sappers Full
110 Spetsnaz Small
Total 1750 Deploys 4 Platoons

The top list is the most balanced. It gives you a mixture of tools but functions as a giant hammer on the attack. I think it suffers the same faults as the Cobra Armored Infantry list in that it is forced to attack tanks when it is at its core an infantry battalion.

The second list is by far the fastest. It will feel the most like your AI list but instead of artillery and M10s you get 14 medium tanks with 10 AT 12 tubes. The infantry is slightly more fragile as it is only 9 stands and no bazookas. You also get good air support in the IL2. It also features two re con units and an infiltrate move.

The last list is the most brutal because it trades all forms of subtle maneuver for a 21 tank hammer. You have 21 AT 12 FA 7 tanks. This should be able to destroy any medium armor you run into and overrun infantry companies. Your one foe is a good trench list full of PF. The sapper company gives you 16 rifle pioneer stands which are AT 4 and fearless. The Spestnaz gives you re con and an infiltration move.

[cephian]

Before I even read the reason for the lists my stomach hurt simply seeing the Takovy list.